Should You Just Pay a Traffic Ticket in Pennsylvania? Read This First

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Today on now we defend we are going to get into a topic that I think probably affects most people at one point in their life or another, and that is our traffic violations. So we get a ton of calls all the time. We on a weekly basis, on a daily basis, sometimes as it relates to different traffic violations that people get.

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And I’m really glad we do because we try to tell people, if you ever get a traffic violation and you just don’t know if you’re going to get points or your license is going to get suspended, or there might be some other indirect consequences. Raising your insurance rates. If you’re a CDL driver and you have some implications there, and you just want to talk to an attorney to know for sure before you go in and just pay a fine and plead guilty, please reach out.

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There’s a free phone call that you can make to a lawyer and figure out whether or not you should just pay a fine and be done with it, or whether you should challenge it to fix it. This is extremely important because so many people with these traffic citations, I see it even when I’m over in court. They’re coming into these courts all the time.

00:01:19:18 – 00:01:43:05

I’m here to pay my ticket, I’m here to pay my ticket. And they’re laying down their 150, 200, 300 bucks to pay their ticket, and they have no idea that they are about to get a license suspension as a result of pleading guilty to that. That is an enormous problem. Because what happens then when those folks do that, is then our office or other attorneys get phone calls and they say, hey, I got this letter from PennDOT, and now my license is being suspended.

00:01:43:07 – 00:02:02:24

And I didn’t know that was going to happen. Nobody told me that was going to happen. And here’s why. They don’t have to tell you that’s going to happen. That is on you to determine for yourself. So be smart, protect yourself, call a lawyer and figure out whether or not you should just pay your ticket, or whether you should fight it and try to fix the problem.

00:02:02:27 – 00:02:28:25

Please do not go into a courtroom. Stick your head in the sand and just pay a fine because you think it’s all going to go away. You’re very likely going to get hit with these indirect consequences that are far, far worse and more costly than the actual fine on the case. And today we’re going to give you all of that information, plus more, so we can hopefully put you in a position to be smart and educated.

00:02:28:25 – 00:02:51:12

The next time you find yourself with a ticket in your hand. So we’re going to start first with, license suspensions because that’s probably the big one, right? Like there are so many traffic tickets out there that cause license suspensions to go into effect. In fact, guys, I’m going to hold up a list. This is a little cheat sheet that we as lawyers kind of use regularly.

00:02:51:15 – 00:03:11:11

This is an entire list in very small print. Of all the different traffic citations out there that can carry driver’s license suspensions and points, and it’s probably a good majority of them out there and the ones that we see pretty frequently. So I’m going to Justin was the one who did our outline for today. So I’m going to cut it over to you Justin.

00:03:11:11 – 00:03:43:00

First you just want to tell us a little bit about some of the big ones that trigger license suspensions. And then I also want to talk. And this is a big one guys. I also want to talk about how you can get your license suspended, not because of the ticket, but because of whether or not you responded or responded properly or missed a payment or something like that, because there’s a lot of people out there that lose their license for stupid little reasons like that, and they don’t even know they lost it until they get pulled over and they’re told by a police officer that your license is suspended.

00:03:43:00 – 00:04:07:15

So but first, let’s go into some some common ones that actually will trigger directly a license suspension. Absolutely. So I think like you’re saying, the probably the biggest one and the most common one that we see is, is going to be driving with a suspended license. So that’s 1543 A, 1543 B, 1543 B 1.1 and then there’s a new charge for driving under suspension.

00:04:07:15 – 00:04:32:09

1543.1 that is the only one out of those four that doesn’t actually result in an additional license suspension. But each of those is going to be an additional year if you either plead guilty or convicted. Those are definitely the biggest ones. Yeah. And Justin, I’m what you’re talking about right here is getting cited for driving under suspension, meaning you’re already suspended for some reason.

00:04:32:09 – 00:04:58:07

Yes. And now you’re getting another citation. And that citation indirectly will trigger yet another suspension being assessed to you on top of your current suspension situation, correct? Yes. So 1543 A is we’ll call that the normal driving under suspension. So your driver’s license has already been suspended for another traffic violation. Failure to well, we’ll get into all that, but essentially that’s the most common, we’ll say.

00:04:58:09 – 00:05:22:19

Right. So again, so just unpack that. That’s essentially if you are suspended for really any other reason other than a DUI. Yes. Right. You’re just driving and you’re suspended because of maybe you failed to pay a fine, maybe you got another traffic citation that triggered a suspension, like driving without insurance or reckless driving, which all triggers suspensions. And then there’s a whole different sect, which is 1543 B yes.

00:05:22:21 – 00:05:51:25

And that is driving under suspension, DUI related. Correct. But before we move to that, it is really important, guys, what Justin’s trying to hammer home to you here and what I’m trying to hammer home to you here is these specific charges will trigger a driver’s license suspension for you. If you plead guilty to them, you will get a letter from PennDOT telling you you’re getting an additional one year driver’s license suspension merely because you pled guilty to that one, and it’s going to stack on top of your current suspension.

00:05:52:01 – 00:06:12:27

So what we find is people get into these black holes. Yes, right. They get because people got to drive for work. They got to drive for school to get their kids around and get groceries. I mean, I’ve seen people that are, you know, suspended for 30 years like crazy black holes, right? Absolutely. And that’s actually why 15, 43.1 got enacted this year.

00:06:13:00 – 00:06:35:01

And I do want to hammer this one home, because this is a big one. And I have not seen the cops cite this yet. And I was just talking to some police officers this morning about how they can start citing this, because it has been signed by the governor. It is able to be charged now. And as you said, Justin very astutely, it does not carry an additional license suspension if you get convicted of that one.

00:06:35:04 – 00:06:54:10

Yep. So for for that new 1543.1 a first offense, if you’re convicted, that is a $50 fine and a second or subsequent offense is a $200 fine. Now, because of how new this is, and I think I’ve seen it cited one time, and I didn’t actually end up getting involved in that case. So, you know, I’m not really sure how it worked out.

00:06:54:11 – 00:07:25:27

I think it’s going to be interesting to see kind of how this plays out as police start citing it more. And, you know, at what point like, is there is there a limit on how many times that you can get charged with that? You know what I mean? But I think with, you know, the 1543 a, like you said, there are certain citations that, if you’re convicted or plead guilty to you, it automatically suspends your license, usually for the underlying excuse me, citations that lead to a suspended license will say you’re looking at 3 to 6 months for most of those.

00:07:26:03 – 00:07:40:27

But then again, while you’re suspended on those, especially if you had no idea that was going on or, you know, you get that letter and then you’re pulled over for the A, then the year starts to tack on and tack on and tack on. But some of the common ones, I would say, and I think you mentioned a couple.

00:07:40:28 – 00:08:08:16

So if your vehicle registration was suspended, that’s a three month license suspension. Right. And that is different than your registration being out, meaning you didn’t renew it. This is actually if your registration is suspended. Yes. Usually we see that happen when you fail to renew your driver’s insurance. They’ll actually suspend your registration in Pennsylvania, which if you get charged with that, it’s a three month driver’s license suspension and then driving without insurance.

00:08:08:17 – 00:08:27:28

How? It’s, not defined how it’s stated in the vehicle code is operating a vehicle without required financial responsibility, which is also a three month suspension. Right. And, you know, if you have both of those together, six months right there. Right. And we do see them together a lot because as I just said, they kind of go hand in hand.

00:08:27:29 – 00:08:47:17

Absolutely. And I think some of the other common ones are, you know, careless or reckless driving, fleeing or looting. I do want to specify careless driving as a point violation. Reckless driving is a suspension violation. It’s six months for reckless driving. You are correct. Yeah. So straight careless driving is just points on our cheat sheet here. It’s,

00:08:47:19 – 00:09:10:04

So if you have careless driving resulting in an unintentional death, that’s careless driving, resulting in serious bodily injury. I haven’t I don’t think I’ve ever actually seen either of those cited. Usually, if it’s that it gets to that point where someone, there’s an unintentional death. There’s other charges. Yeah, I have seen it in cases where we basically complete it down to that.

00:09:10:05 – 00:09:30:25

Yeah. You know, because there’s still a license suspension, but you’re not maybe getting charged or convicted of a felony. Yeah, you’ll take a summary offense, but you’ll still get all those trimmings. A big one I see is out racing. Yeah. Racing. Usually kids racing on highways or, you know, you we talked about it in a previous episode. Remember we talked about, on route 30, how they do the hot rod hot rods.

00:09:31:01 – 00:09:53:27

Yeah. I think twice a year they’re out there in droves. The cops, and they’re looking for peeling out. They’re looking for that racing. They’re looking for that type of stuff. And, the racing citation is a six month suspension. Yep. So I actually just represented a young fellow who was at school, goes to Dallastown here in New York, Pennsylvania, and he was racing in, in the parking lot, actually.

00:09:53:29 – 00:10:14:19

And while he was racing. He was racing another person. Another girl, actually. And that girl and him both got cited by the school resource officer. And they, they didn’t know there was a license suspension. So this is what I was getting to earlier. What he did is he went down to magisterial District Court. He stuck his head in the sand, and he paid a fine and thought he was good to go.

00:10:14:25 – 00:10:32:25

Then he gets a letter from PennDOT that says, hey, buddy, guess what? You’re getting suspended for six months. And then he calls my office. So of course I told him, why didn’t you call me before? Well, I thought it was just a fine. I’m telling you here now, guys. Public service announcement. Do not go pay a fine without talking to a lawyer.

00:10:32:28 – 00:10:56:21

Please. At least call a lawyer and talk to somebody before you make that mistake. It becomes exponentially harder for us to fix these on summary conviction appeals than it would have been if we could have just gone down a little magisterial district court and talked to the police officer and fixed it there. Not only is it tougher because you now have the district attorney’s office involved, you now have the main court involved.

00:10:56:24 – 00:11:17:01

There’s more hands in the pot, but you’re also dealing with a situation that is far more a, I guess, publicly exposed in the sense that it’s they’re going to be less likely to work with you. So it becomes harder than if you can go down there at magistrate court and work with it down there. So of course, we appealed that young fellows ticket.

00:11:17:04 – 00:11:35:22

You know, and again, legal fees are more expensive to do an appeal than they are if we go down to Magisterial Court two. But we went ahead and we did that. And when we got down there, we were able to convince the officer and the district attorney’s office through doing some pre trial engagement and driver improvement courses, which we’ll talk a lot about.

00:11:35:22 – 00:11:58:12

We always have our clients do this. There’s some very specific coursework that I think the courts recognize because it’s been consistently used. It’s not just pulled out of the sky. We’re not just pulling something off the internet randomly. But, we were able to get it worked down. So this young man avoided his suspension. Unfortunately, I told him, I said, talk to your friend who you were racing with and have them call me to.

00:11:58:12 – 00:12:19:17

Or have them call a lawyer, and they should appeal theirs as well. She failed to do that within the time period, because the time period to appeal a traffic violation is 30 days from the date of conviction. So if you plead guilty to it, that’s the data conviction. You have 30 days to appeal that if you do not file a timely appeal, it is quite unlikely.

00:12:19:17 – 00:12:35:19

Possible, but unlikely you’ll be able to get what’s called a nunc pro tunc allowance to file late. But in any event, we filed in time. We got down there, we fixed it. The girl just accepted this suspension. Just because, again, she stuck her head in the sand, and I felt really bad for her. But, you know, you can’t help.

00:12:35:19 – 00:12:59:10

But you can’t help. So with that said, guys, I think I’ve preached enough about that. I do. Just please hear me on that. And for the officers out there, Justin was talking about the 1543.1. I do want to hammer that a little bit, because, there are only very specific circumstances that you can cite that I do think, guys, and I want to get your take on this because we haven’t seen it yet.

00:12:59:10 – 00:13:29:24

So new. But I do think it’s going to be one that we can use as like a blow off valve that we could plead these down to, but technically these only apply if your original suspension was related to, you know, not paying a fine that you had because the court this is important. The court has the power to suspend your license if you do not follow through with your payments to the court on your tickets, or if you do not respond to your tickets.

00:13:29:24 – 00:13:51:10

So if you don’t plead guilty or not guilty. So that will actually trigger an indefinite meaning ongoing, unrelenting suspension until you respond, until you pay your ticket, whatever it might be. And a lot of people get suspended for that, and they don’t even know it because their ticket got buried under all the other mail and other things that they have.

00:13:51:11 – 00:14:17:06

I mean, I, I run a household two guys. I know how it is. You get your mail, you put it on the counter, I’m going to get right back to that. And then your kids get in your ear and you forget, and it gets buried under a pile of nothing. And, you know, it goes into oblivion. That’s how your license gets suspended because you didn’t respond to the ticket and boom, you could be a candidate to get this type of a ticket instead of a standard driving under suspension, and avoid that extra year that has put people into such a black hole with these suspensions, guys.

00:14:17:06 – 00:14:39:24

That’s actually why that was enacted. That is why this specific section 1543.1 even went into effect was because of the black holes and the legislatures and the governor in Pennsylvania was seeing these effects on people’s real lives. And they took action for the right reasons. And it’s actually, I think, going to help people once it becomes more mainstream and is being used.

00:14:39:27 – 00:15:05:10

But again, I have not seen it used yet. Have either one of you guys seen 1543.1 used twice. You have the one. Yeah, I talked to a guy maybe about a month ago. Didn’t end up getting involved in the case, but he was cited with that. And then I had another case where we actually pled a 1543 A down to the 1543.1, and this was like a week after it went into effect.

00:15:05:11 – 00:15:24:09

Nice. It just ended up working out where that guy’s hearing actually got rescheduled. So, you know, a month earlier we wouldn’t have been able to do that. But the reason that his basically his license was suspended for, I think it was failure to respond to a citation. So I was able to convince the officer to agree to knock it down to that.

00:15:24:09 – 00:15:47:04

And the judge was fine with it. That’s the only did did the cop that you were dealing with know about this, or did you actually suggest this and kind of educate on. So I think he, if I recall correctly, he didn’t know about it, but because of when the actual violation happened, it wasn’t in effect yet. Oh, I see, when we got to the actual hearing, it was so he agreed to amend it at that point.

00:15:47:06 – 00:16:04:03

And again, the judge accepted it. It worked out. Yeah. And it was his first offense to as well. So that also helped. I love hearing that. Like the cop was on board and kind of understood that too, because again, the police that I’ve dealt with most recently and I’ve kind of tried to educate some of them on this, they haven’t heard of it yet.

00:16:04:04 – 00:16:30:16

Yeah. So again, I don’t even think it’s mainstream yet. I mean, not they are open to it because after I explain it to them, we look it up, we kind of educate them. They’re definitely open to it. And I think they agree that it’s a great blow off valve for some of these. Right. Because most of the cops out there I’ve, I’ve found with these driving suspensions, unless you’re habitual, unless you’re out there just driving around for piss poor reasons, you know, they’ll probably try to work with you because they know people are trying to get to work and raise a family.

00:16:30:16 – 00:16:53:05

Right. And this is a great way for them to do it. Right. But again, technically, it is kind of reserved for those where you didn’t pay your your citation or you didn’t respond to your citation. I also see a note here, Justin, that you put and this is a good point. If the underlying offense for suspension is a violation of section 1501 A, so that’s related to drivers required to be licensed.

00:16:53:05 – 00:17:20:03

That’s actually one we have used for years to to try to plead these 1543 A’s down to. Yeah, because drivers essentially driving without a license slightly different guys than driving under suspension, but hugely different because for a first offense of those you do not get a license suspension. So what what it would have been a year on a driving under suspension is nothing on a driving without a license.

00:17:20:03 – 00:17:44:06

So it’s a it’s a it’s a good blow off valve. Now a second driving without a license under 1501 is a suspension six months. Six months. Yeah. That one is, is sometimes, you know, a problem. But that’s where this would come in, right? Because if you had that suspension under that section for a second or subsequent 15, 43.1 according to what you you wrote and researched here, Justin is in play, right?

00:17:44:07 – 00:18:10:16

Yeah. That’s that’s written directly into the statute. Yeah. Okay. Good. Yeah. And again we’re talking guys about like $50. Fine. You know for first offense. So again this is a great brand new thing that I again I want the officers who listen to our podcast to look into this to know this because this is a very common citation that ruins lives, you know, frequently because this day and age, guys, you rely on your driver’s license, you rely on getting around.

00:18:10:16 – 00:18:28:12

I mean, at least here in central Pennsylvania, where a lot of the areas are pretty rural. I mean, I don’t know, Tim. You you have anything about that you want to add to the discussion? Well, with 1533 suspensions, the failure to respond to the citation, the other thing we haven’t talked about that comes with that is a warrant.

00:18:28:15 – 00:18:49:21

If you don’t respond to the citation, the court will issue a warrant for you. So you’ll end up with a suspension, which is indefinite until you respond to the citation. And there will also be a warrant issued for you which can be served on you. And then you could be taken to jail and put in front of a magistrate to come up with, you know, what you’re doing with the citation.

00:18:49:23 – 00:19:06:23

Yeah. It’s never a good look. Right? And you’re going to get a face full of being yelled at, and you’re gonna. Why didn’t you respond? And, you know, it’s probably like I said before, it’s as simple as it got buried under my mail or something. Like, it’s such an easy thing to respond to. It is. I mean, the reality is all the instructions are on the citation.

00:19:06:23 – 00:19:36:15

And when in doubt, I tell people all the time, go into go into the court, bring the paperwork with you because some of them will require you to post collateral. If you’re pleading not guilty to the citation, some of them don’t make you do that. And so if you’re not sure what you would need to pay to plead not guilty in terms of collateral, then go into the court, asks those questions, or speak with an attorney, and then we can figure that out with the court as to whether or not you need to make a payment for collateral for pleading not guilty.

00:19:36:16 – 00:19:53:07

I do want to add a caveat to that, Tim, because I think people actually get into a problem when they go into the court and they’re asking the staff at the court, like, is this? Am I going to get suspended? Well, yeah, that’s not what I’m saying. Yeah, I know you’re not. But I want to clarify because I see people literally doing that.

00:19:53:09 – 00:20:09:24

Yeah. And while I’m waiting for my hearings in court, they go in and the the ladies are men at the desk or lady that and they basically say sometimes I’ve actually heard him say no. And I’m sitting there going, shit. I’m like, that’s actually yes. Yeah. And you know, and because they just don’t know. They’re not lawyers.

00:20:09:24 – 00:20:25:15

They’re literally people. They’re employed by the county to work the front desk at a magistrate. So please don’t rely on them guys for legal advice. And the judge is not going to come out and talk to you and go through that either. They’re not allowed to do that toward the rule of ethics. So again, this is where you have to talk to a lawyer.

00:20:25:15 – 00:20:47:00

This is where you have to ask this question before you plead or before you’re going down there to ask them, okay. It’s free to call lawyer usually. So I mean, I think one thing that has to be said though to is and I tell people this all the time, step number one to getting your license back is when you’re dealing with these actual suspensions.

00:20:47:03 – 00:21:11:18

Step number one is you have to stop driving. And that may be easier said than done. But if you have a 1543 A suspension and it’s related to certain certain offenses specifically like a failure to respond, you can get a limited license even with that suspension, which allows you to go to and from work and that kind of stuff so you can meet those basic necessities.

00:21:11:21 – 00:21:35:29

If you continue driving, you’re putting yourself in the black hole. So you’re at a point where there really isn’t a remedy for you. If you’re convicted of another suspension offense after the first one, the the limited license is off the table for you. You can’t get it. So step number one to getting your license back in any of these situations, if you’re dealing with a 1543 suspension is stop driving.

00:21:36:05 – 00:21:55:09

Because if you keep driving you’re going to stack suspensions. You’re going to you’re going to potentially remove options that exist for you to get your license back early, and you’re going to make it so that your license is suspended indefinitely. You’re going to have a ton of court fees, ton of fines, because the fines are really expensive. I mean, they’re there for driving under suspension.

00:21:55:10 – 00:22:15:22

I mean, you’re going to end up paying finds that are in excess of what people get for, frankly, more serious crimes. So step number one is you have to stop driving. Yeah. It’s it’s easy to say, man, but it’s hard to do. And I agree with you, though, and you’re kind of giving away a little bit of the secret sauce of how we fix these cases, which is fine because we’re okay with that.

00:22:15:22 – 00:22:31:18

But basically when when we have clients that come in here and they’re sided with driving under suspension, I mean, one of the first things I tell them is how we’re going to fix this case. We got to go in there, we got to talk to the police. We got to talk to the court. We have to negotiate. But you go going in there and there are plenty of lawyers that do this.

00:22:31:18 – 00:22:49:11

Their empty suits, they go in there and they beg and that does not work. You have to prepare. And the way you prepare for these is you come up with a cognizable plan to have to show to the court and to the police of how you’re not going to be driving and how you haven’t been driving since this incident happened.

00:22:49:13 – 00:23:13:19

And what is that plan? It’s not, hey, I’m going to get an Uber. Anybody can say that. It’s a warm body in court. It’s somebody showing up with you and saying, hey, I’ve been driving Mr. Smith around since he got cited with this because he took it upon himself to make the point, to make sure he wasn’t breaking the law, because people get we were just talking about this multiple of these over and over and over again.

00:23:13:25 – 00:23:38:18

And the judges, I think, are sick and tired of it. And they kind of think with these tickets that people are just kind of thumbing their nose at the court system and the law, and they treat them more seriously as a result of that. And they, they literally when you get to some of these, like, we’re going to go into this here in a moment with driving under suspension, DUI related, but even non DUI related driving under suspension, if you have a sixth or subsequent it is mandatory jail time.

00:23:38:21 – 00:24:14:06

So by by you’re going to jail for this literally this crime of driving okay that is crazy. If you think about it, that people literally go to jail because they’re driving on the road, they’re not even driving poorly. They’re just driving under suspension, and they go to jail for it every single day. Well, and, you know, the judges aren’t necessarily wrong in doing that, because once you get to a point where somebody got, you know, a ton of these and I’ve seen people where they’ve got, you know, they’re in double digits on these and they, they are thumbing the nose that their nose at the law because they’ve decided that it’s just, you know, they’re

00:24:14:06 – 00:24:37:18

never going to get their license back. So they’re just going to keep driving. And, you know, in terms of like a public service announcement, I tell these, these drivers a lot that while you may not think that’s a big deal, you are kind of screwing over all the other motorists on the road, because if you get into a car accident and your license is suspended, you are you don’t have insurance, so you’re screwing the other driver over.

00:24:37:18 – 00:24:58:10

So, I mean, just from a general, perspective of another motorist on the road, you know, it is a problem for people to be deciding that they’re just going to keep driving with a suspended license. You’re you’re not helping yourself, but you’re also hurting a lot of the other motorists on the road. Yeah, yeah. And I’ve heard because our insurance rates to go up to.

00:24:58:11 – 00:25:17:22

Yeah. Thanks by the way. Yeah. But I, I’ve heard judges, like, literally say what you just said in court, and that’s why they treat these severely, and that’s why they put people in jail for these. I would say a significant amount of people that are currently sitting in York County Prison right now are there because they were driving under suspension.

00:25:17:24 – 00:25:36:04

I see it happen like every day. But again, to get back to what I was saying about like the secret sauce of how you fix these is you come up with a real plan, guys, and that’s that’s a warm body. It’s not I use Uber, it’s not somebody helping me. That person should show up in court with you, with your lawyer, or write a letter or something like that.

00:25:36:05 – 00:25:54:05

That’s right, a letter, right? At the very least, I’ve seen two. I had a client recently and I didn’t realize this was a thing, but like, if you have a DUI suspension, and, and, you know, one of the things that we have to do for a DUI suspension to avoid that mandatory minimum in jail is you’re going to have to get another drug and alcohol evaluation.

00:25:54:07 – 00:26:17:27

So that’s a requirement in the statute for even the suspensions. And people don’t understand that because they’re like, well, I wasn’t DUI at the time, but it’s a DUI related suspension. So you have to get the drug and alcohol to avoid spending that mandatory minimum in jail. Right. And as part of a lot of those treatment programs with a lot of the providers here, they will give you bus passes and things to.

00:26:17:29 – 00:26:34:28

So like that’s another resource that you can use. I had a client that was doing that that’s been doing that. And and she was taking the bus. And that’s one of the things that helped her in the long run, helped us be able to resolve it with a pretty good she could get there because she was able to come into court and say, look, I have this plan.

00:26:34:28 – 00:26:55:03

I’ve got these bus passes I’ve been using. When that fails, I’ve got relatives that can that can, that can help me. When that fails, I have been walking because all the places I need to go are in the city. What exactly? Well, you got to be careful with those two certain electric bikes. Most of them. Yeah. We should actually talk about that on this episode of Electric Bikes a little bit.

00:26:55:03 – 00:27:12:05

But what you’re doing there, Tim, is you’re and you’re adding fail safe to fail on the plan. And that’s what the judges want to see. That is the most impressive way to do it. And that is when you walk into court with failsafe after fail safe and you have warm bodies there to say, hey, I’m the guy, I’m helping this, I know what’s going on.

00:27:12:07 – 00:27:32:12

The judges will work with you. Yes, the police are going to be far more likely to work with you. I preach it to every single one of my clients. And literally, I tell them, if you’re not going to do it this way, I’m not going to represent you because it won’t work. I’ve heard judges will, like, if somebody comes in and they don’t think that far ahead and they say, well, my brother is going to drive me everywhere.

00:27:32:17 – 00:28:08:25

And I’ve heard judges clap back, what are you going to do when your brother is busy? Or if your brother is sick and can’t drive you and they don’t have an answer, and that’s where things start to fall apart? Yeah. I think one thing to just plug in here, too. I covered a, driving under suspension case for you at one of them DJ’s a couple of months ago, and the individual had had multiple previous convictions for both A and B, and I think I can’t remember if you had her driving record in the file or not, but I remember getting to the hearing and talking with the officer and what we had talked

00:28:08:25 – 00:28:34:11

about. What I think both of our understanding was, is that she had like 2 or 3 less than she actually did, and it probably took about an hour with the judge and the officer ticket, essentially convince him to amend the citation to something that wouldn’t come with a further suspension because she was getting close. I would say she probably had another two years to go, but had young kids, you know, had a good job.

00:28:34:12 – 00:28:52:19

She did come up with a plan. It wasn’t the best plan, but had a warm body there. And again, this is another reason it’s very, very important to get a lawyer. The judge literally said, if you had come in here by yourself and had no idea what we’ve been doing for the past hour, you would never get this result right, and you’re probably going to jail and you’re probably going to jail.

00:28:52:19 – 00:29:09:00

Yeah, yeah. So it’s like even in the situations where you think you may have it handled, or, you know, think you have a really good plan. Sometimes things don’t go the way we think it’s going to go, especially for us. You know, we may have something we thought was worked out when we get there, and maybe the judge doesn’t want to take it, which is kind of what happened.

00:29:09:00 – 00:29:24:24

But I think because we have good relationships with the officers and with, you know, most if not all of the judges in the county, when we get involved and we go there and we do these things, even if it doesn’t seem like it’s going to go the way we want it to initially, that doesn’t mean we have to give up right there.

00:29:24:25 – 00:29:45:16

Right? You know, like I said, it took about an hour. I had one I had one just recently where it was it was somebody who was definitely pushing the envelope with repeat offenses. And the officer was not willing to amend it all the way down to a 1501. It was a DUI related suspension. So he wasn’t willing to give her the benefit of a driving without a license, which would not have carried a license suspension.

00:29:45:16 – 00:30:05:23

But because we had we had done enough because we were shooting for that, we had done enough that we were at the very least able to get him to amend it down to a non DUI related suspension. And since she did not have many of those, I think she maybe had one of them. It did not come with any mandatory minimums.

00:30:05:23 – 00:30:26:06

So and, and so what I told her was and she was she was happy with this result because while it carries another 12 month suspension, her fine was the judge as part of the deal, kept it the same as it would have been, because the maximum could be up to $1,000 and something like that. I think it was 1000.

00:30:26:07 – 00:30:43:04

So he gave her the fine, as if it would have been the mandatory minimum on the UI related suspension. But the thing that came off the table was jail and house arrest. So while she maybe had to eat a little bit on the fine, paying a substantial fine, and she got a 12 month suspension, she was already looking at that stuff anyway.

00:30:43:07 – 00:31:12:10

But now she doesn’t have to pay additional costs for house arrest. She doesn’t have to be on house arrest or go to jail. She doesn’t have to pay for the monitor. And and that was a win for her. That was the best we could do even though we wanted something more. It’s a great middle ground, but what you’re really getting at their Tim and I have this conversation, and I would encourage you guys to do this the same way when somebody calls us up and they say, hey, I have a driving under suspension, DUI related charge, and they say, I don’t want to get another suspension and I don’t want to go to jail, and

00:31:12:10 – 00:31:29:23

I don’t want to lose my house and all this stuff if I’m in jail or I don’t even want to do house arrest, I tell them in no uncertain terms what you’re asking me for. There is to kind of get the judge and the cop to give you a double or triple reduction on where you’re currently at, because what you’re really asking us to do is take your case.

00:31:29:23 – 00:31:58:23

And this is very doable, done correctly, but sometimes not. You’re asking us to take a driving under suspension DUI related down to a driving under suspension regular under subsection A, which carries no jail time if it’s not a sixth or subsequent. And then you’re asking us to get them to reduce it again to something that doesn’t carry a license suspension, because even that 1543 a while you stay out of jail does suspend your license for a year, just like the DUI related one does.

00:31:58:29 – 00:32:25:12

So that’s a pretty big ask when you’re there in court and you’re asking a cop to do that. And you’re right, Tim, some cops and some judges just can’t get there with some circumstances. However, with the right circumstances, I’ve seen it happen, and I’m sure you have. It’s a heavy lift. It’s a heavy lift. I think I the the reason it doesn’t work in cases where it doesn’t work is for completely understandable reasons.

00:32:25:15 – 00:32:44:16

What you’re dealing with is somebody who is a repeat, repeat, repeat oftentimes to the nth degree offender. And they have either spent no time in jail or in some cases they have spent time in jail, but they just keep driving. And so what you’re doing when you keep doing that is you are sending a message that you cannot be deterred.

00:32:44:23 – 00:33:05:29

You’re going to keep doing it. And when the justice system sees that, when a judge sees that, or a prosecutor sees that, that means we’re just going to we’re going to drop the hammer on you because you’re not getting it. And the only way to fix this problem is to just max you out on jail, because you are not going to be deterred.

00:33:06:04 – 00:33:35:27

So that’s why I said, number one really is to come up with a plan to stop driving in those kinds of situations. Because the other thing that we oftentimes don’t know until we get into the hearing and talk with the officer, if we don’t have a copy of the driving record, once they produce the driving record, what we oftentimes see is that we’re dealing with somebody who maybe has three driving under suspension, non Dewey related, and they have maybe like 4 or 5 driving under suspension DUI related.

00:33:35:28 – 00:34:01:23

But all of the non DUI related suspensions occurred after a DUI. And so what that means is that this person has actually been given more breaks because they’ve previously pled these down from DUI suspensions to non Dewey suspensions. And and despite being given break after break after break they keep getting into the same situation. If you’ve been given breaks before you would be wise to make the most of those opportunities.

00:34:01:23 – 00:34:17:11

If you find yourself in that situation again you’re making it harder to get a break the second or third or fourth or fifth time around. Yeah, because the justice system is going to see that in recoil. Right. And the cops know it because they look at these records. Yeah. So you’re not you’re not going to go in there and fool them.

00:34:17:11 – 00:34:39:09

They have your driving record. Tim, you brought up a good point and I wanted to also touch on this, as it relates to driving under suspension, DUI related. I want every one of our viewers to understand if you get a DUI and you get suspended for that DUI and that suspension runs its course. So let’s use the example.

00:34:39:11 – 00:35:02:01

You get suspended for one year on a first offense DUI. You serve the entire year. You do your ignition interlock period that you’re required to do. You’re immediately eligible in that situation to get interlock on right away. So you do a full year of interlock, and you fail to pay a restoration fee to restore your license. Okay. You are not unsuspected at that point.

00:35:02:01 – 00:35:25:27

You are still fully and completely suspended in relation to that DUI, even though you serve the underlying time period. So if you go out and you get caught driving, you’re going to get hit with driving under suspension, DUI related. Even though you did your whole DUI suspension, that will continue to be the case until you restore your license.

00:35:25:29 – 00:35:45:10

Hear me on that. Because if you go out and get multiple driving under suspensions after that and you get into this black hole we’re talking about, you are forever DUI suspended because you can’t restore your license for years and years. So every single time you get out there, you’re not getting 15, 43, a driving under suspension regular. You’re going to jail.

00:35:45:11 – 00:36:11:04

On driving under suspension, DUI related. And when you get to multiple of these, it can get pretty crazy. The mandatory prison sentence that you actually have to do. So. Hear me on that point. And I think that seasoned attorneys, when they’re in that kind of a situation, they will try to negotiate it down so that it’s not so that they are getting the break of at least a non DUI related suspension.

00:36:11:06 – 00:36:46:07

But I’ve seen clients who are savvy enough. And what we recommend here is to take that to the next level. If you’re in that situation and you get cited with driving under suspension, the first thing that you should do is go pay your your restoration fee with PennDOT and get your license restored. Because if a lot of times what happens is you were suspended, and maybe you thought for some reason that you were able to drive again because you got a letter from PennDOT, which to be honest, is is kind of a stupid assumption to make because you don’t have a physical license in your hand.

00:36:46:11 – 00:37:08:13

In most of those cases, nobody reads those letters and they are tough to read, and there are 3 or 4 pages long, but if you read them, they will say you are eligible for restoration on this date. It does not mean that you can start driving on that date. And a lot of these people, they start driving on that date, but they don’t ever actually have a physical license because they mailed it back to PennDOT or whatever.

00:37:08:18 – 00:37:29:15

And so those people, it’s like, you know, you are driving without a license in your hand, so you should know better. But let’s say they truly didn’t know, right? It’s an honest mistake. They thought their license was was restored. The first thing they should do in that situation, in many of them who are smart do it is they go and they have their license restored with PennDOT.

00:37:29:17 – 00:37:44:17

And if you do that, while that suspension citation is pending, before you get to court, before you get to court, a lot of times what we can do is we can come to the officer, we’ll have you do a driver improvement course. We may even have you do a drug and alcohol evaluation, or something else will stack the deck in our favor.

00:37:44:19 – 00:38:00:19

You come in with your license and we show that to the officer. And a lot of times these officers are not they’re going to say, I’m not going to add to your problems. We’ll amend this down to driving without a license, and you come out of it without a suspension. Can you mic drop after that? Because that’s huge.

00:38:00:21 – 00:38:21:01

And and you’re right like that. Yeah. That’s an important point guys. I mean and Tim that is you’re right. That is a very savvy, smart move that we vies our clients frequently to do and to hammer that home. If you are in a situation where you have a citation for driving or suspension and you have the ability, you just haven’t restored your license, do it.

00:38:21:03 – 00:38:46:04

Pay the $100 or whatever it is to restore your license. Walk into court and I promise you, I almost in every case, unless the cop is straight out of hell, they’re going to basically say, I don’t want to put this person who has fixed the problem back in that hole, correct? They’re going to work with you. Yes. You know, I don’t think I’ve ever seen an officer who, in response to that factual scenario, has said, screw your client.

00:38:46:06 – 00:38:59:21

Your client can eat the stone back in the hole. I don’t think I’ve seen a single officer do that. Never saw that. And I mean, when we were in the DA’s office, I mean, especially doing like summary appeals and stuff like that, if someone came to me, it was like they restored their license, you know, they have insurance.

00:38:59:21 – 00:39:17:19

Registration is good. I mean, what why not? Yeah. Help them out. And that’s like I mean, you got to be like, straight up evil to be like, you know what? I’m just going to say nobody that is that way. Because honestly, like, this is another secret in the business. You know, you’re getting a look at how the sausage is made.

00:39:17:21 – 00:39:34:04

A lot of officers don’t want to be bothered with these citations. Yeah. For a long time, there was, I think, a myth that existed where it’s like in order to get out of a citation, you just plead not guilty and the officer won’t show up to court. That doesn’t happen in Pennsylvania. Doesn’t happen. I mean, I think there was a time where maybe that did happen.

00:39:34:07 – 00:39:50:22

Well, it doesn’t happen in my many, many year career, but now I do want to hit on that, actually. But I want to get back. Go ahead. That is important. I have a lot of clients to tell me. Oh, the cops probably not going to show up, right? And I do think not to say anything bad about Maryland, but we’re very close to the Maryland border here in New York.

00:39:50:22 – 00:40:05:23

Pennsylvania and our county got a lot of clients out of Maryland, and they tell me frequently the cop never shows up to stuff down in Maryland. I don’t know, I’m not in Maryland. Not saying that’s the case, but I hear it a lot. That is not the case in your county, Pennsylvania. It’s not in the case in any county.

00:40:05:25 – 00:40:22:07

And the reason it’s not the case is they’re actually under protocol. They can their job could be on the line. If they’re not showing up for court, they are showing up for court. Yeah. So don’t bank on that. I literally count on one hand the amount of times I’ve had a case and I’ve done thousands. Yeah. Where a cop didn’t show up.

00:40:22:12 – 00:40:38:12

The only time I’ve seen it is if the cop is currently on a call during the hearing, and then they’ll call in the court. Yeah, but I mean, in that case, you know, like in that case, the officer texted me, it was like, hey, I’m on a call, like your client, you know, enjoy the break. Basically was like, I’m not gonna I’m not going to make a big deal out of it.

00:40:38:12 – 00:40:54:10

I can’t be there today. You know, you know, keep, keep about your business. But the thing that I was going to say is a lot of Maryland, another thing that you kind of said that triggered this in me was that a lot of Maryland people don’t get when I tell them we’re going to plead not guilty, and then we’ll negotiate.

00:40:54:10 – 00:41:17:28

They don’t get that because apparently that’s not how it works in Maryland either. The idea of negotiating you may have been cited with this traffic citation, but maybe you plead guilty to something different. They that’s like a foreign concept to them, I think, too. So we do in Pennsylvania have a luxury with these officers being able to get a dialog going with them where we can limit a lot of the damage on you with negotiation.

00:41:18:00 – 00:41:39:25

Yeah. I mean, one of the reasons that we maintain positive professional relationships with police is one, frankly, it makes life more enjoyable. It makes our jobs more enjoyable. We get along, we can, you know. And for those of you on TikTok, boot liquor, this crap that I saw on our last episode because we had a chief of police here, screw you.

00:41:39:28 – 00:41:58:22

I mean, honestly, like, I can see that. Yeah, I mean, that really I mean, part of our job professionally is to maintain positive relationships with these individuals because at the end of the day, it makes our job more and our lives more enjoyable, and it benefits our clients. And the cops are happier, too, and that’s why we do it.

00:41:58:24 – 00:42:27:23

And that’s what I was going to say before, was that a lot of people don’t realize that with these citations, a lot of officers, and especially Diaz, do not really want to be bothered with these. They this is pandering to the lowest denominator. I’ve talked to a ton of of of officers who will straight up tell me, and this is the the big secret I was going to say is that a lot of officers will not even initiate a traffic stop for many minor infractions.

00:42:28:00 – 00:42:49:05

They do not want to get involved with it. A lot of officers out there, they don’t like working traffic. They don’t want to do traffic unless they absolutely have to. The only reason they get involved in it is if you’re driving like a maniac. You’re really driving like a crazy person, or you’re really hall in it and you’re speeding in such a way that now they have to, they’re not going to turn a blind eye to it.

00:42:49:06 – 00:43:12:12

Yeah, they’ll get involved at that point. But once they’re involved, they don’t want to get into some protracted legal battle over these citations. And Diaz, forget about it. They have other things to do. I mean, it’s it’s it used to be a job in one of the offices I was in that that the summary appeal court de was a job that was given to brand new attorneys who joined the office.

00:43:12:12 – 00:43:35:17

Lowest wrong. It’s the lowest rung. So you give it to people who just need some reps in court, just need time, maybe familiarizing themselves with the motor vehicle code or minor summary criminal offenses. But your chief deputies and whatever, they do not want to be anywhere near summary appeals. They’ve got better things to do. They don’t want to take up the time doing this.

00:43:35:17 – 00:43:53:16

So that in some ways gives us a massive leg up in negotiations, because we’re doing something that a lot of people don’t really want to. They don’t want to be involved in this long term. They don’t want to get sucked into some weird quagmire in a case they’re willing to negotiate. You just have to put the homework in and do it.

00:43:53:16 – 00:44:12:28

And and we come to court prepared and then we can negotiate. Well. And prosecutors aren’t coming to magisterial district court on the first bite of the apple on these. That’s the only really at summary conviction appeals in the Common Pleas court. So that’s another thing. I mean, that’s a that’s another reason to kind of keep these relationships positive, because we’re dealing with these officers day in and day out.

00:44:12:28 – 00:44:34:25

They’re dealing with us day in and day out. And it just it’s very workable when you handle it appropriately. And to your point, also like I think people that do show up without lawyers and the cops get down there, they kind of are like, oh, they’re like cringing because they’re like, now I have to kind of try to figure something out with this person who doesn’t know what they’re talking about, right?

00:44:35:01 – 00:44:58:17

When you show up there with a lawyer, yeah, you’ve paid for it. But dude, you’re going to get every bang for your buck because not only is that cop going to know your lawyer going to have hopefully a good relationship if you’re hiring the right people with them, but they’re going to be much more apt to talk to them, to be able to have an open dialog that we’re talking the same language on, and they don’t have to educate us on how they should do something.

00:44:58:19 – 00:45:22:19

And a lot of times we call these guys before we ever show up in court. And we another benefit that we have over you is we know a good deal when we see one. Yeah, I’ve seen a bunch of cases where I’m telling people for the summary appeal stage that it’s going to be really hard to do better than what happened at the the summary trial, because the officer was willing, he extended, you know, people will tell me, well, this is what I was cited with.

00:45:22:22 – 00:45:43:07

The officer came to court and told me he would amend it to this citation. And I, I was like, no, I’m not doing that. And I took a hearing and I was found guilty. And now I want to appeal it. And it’s like, well, I would have told you, you probably should accept that offer because that doesn’t carry points or it doesn’t have a license suspension or there is no jail time on that, or your fine would have been less.

00:45:43:10 – 00:46:00:07

And when we come to the summary appeal and now I have to tuck my tail between my legs and go to the officer and say, hey, remember that offer that you extended at the prelim that my guy was too stupid to accept, and he rejected it and spat in your face and made you take a hearing? Can we have that offer again, please?

00:46:00:10 – 00:46:18:15

A lot of times the officers are going to say no. He he made his bed and I convict. We convicted him once. We’re going to convict him again. Yeah. So do your homework, get an attorney. And like I said, we know a good deal when we can see. When we see one, we can tell you. Hey, this is what he’s offering.

00:46:18:17 – 00:46:35:29

And this is why this makes sense or it doesn’t make sense. Or maybe we can do better or whatever. But if you come in and you’re like, well, I just didn’t do it. He can’t prove it. Whatever. And you’re like, I’m going to take him to task and then they convict you. Well you’ve lost a lot of leverage and negotiating posture at that point.

00:46:36:00 – 00:46:53:05

And guys let me frank with you. It’s very very unlikely you’re going to go to court and win your speeding ticket. Yes. You’re not okay. It’s like I can’t even think of a single case that I’ve ever seen. That was like I went to my trial for my speeding ticket. Well, good for you. Put your strong man costume on there and have your day.

00:46:53:06 – 00:47:11:28

But you’re getting convicted of the full shooting match. Yeah, I mean, it was here it all the time. I wasn’t going that fast. Yeah, it wasn’t going that fast. Yeah. The cop, he screwed up when he clocked me that you don’t win cases out. I’ve never seen a case. And I tell people all the time, there are ways to challenge the results of the speeding violation, like the the pace test or the radar or something like that.

00:47:11:28 – 00:47:40:04

But in all of my years, I have never seen any of those tactics be viable because they are keeping up with they have to calibrate those devices once a month. And I’ve seen officers, to their credit, that come to court for the summary appeal hearing, and they’ve got the calibration certifications for every month. They’ve been a police officer, they’ve got a binder, and it’s got all, you know, it’s got the fancy little like sleeves for all the sheets and they can flip through it.

00:47:40:04 – 00:48:06:21

It’s this nice presentation. It’s never there’s never been a gap in the calibration. It’s always been calibrated. So they’re going to get up there and say my device is properly calibrated. It’s been certified. I paced him for 3/10 of a mile. This was the reading I got on the system. And you’re not going to win even if you if you can swear up and down that your speedometer said a different result and the the most likely conclusion that everybody’s going to draw is your speedometer needs to be checked.

00:48:06:22 – 00:48:32:21

You need to go get your car service, you can take your pictures and you can measure the scene. I’ve had people bring in binders to me for speeding tickets and I’m like, dude, I appreciate that you did your homework. But here’s how the secret sauce really works. Yeah, this is not going to fly in court, right? We got to fix this through negotiation and being proactive and maybe doing a driver improvement course and show up and, you know, make a good, use a good relationship to make a good case to negotiate.

00:48:32:22 – 00:48:51:29

One of the big tactics that does sometimes work that I’ve seen is if they didn’t pay, if they were pacing you, but they didn’t pace you for 3/10 of a mile. Yeah. That that wasn’t that isn’t valid. That’s a valid defense. But I’ve only seen that be in play like once or twice. So you know and and the distance that they were pacing you is going to be on the citation.

00:48:51:29 – 00:49:09:12

And you can do the math. If it’s over 3/10 of a mile they got you. I mean that’s all there is to it. Yeah. I think when it comes to speeding, the biggest thing is obviously trying to just get a reduced to like five over. Right. Because then there’s no points. Yeah. Or a different depending on how fast you were going over the speed limit.

00:49:09:15 – 00:49:30:06

Obedience to traffic control devices. There’s some other things that, you know, we could ultimately get them worked out for. I think it’s just absolutely bonkers when people call us and they’re, you know, doing like a hundred in a 55 or 95 and a 45 and they’re like, well, I don’t want the points. Like, well, even if we could get the officer on board, the judge has to approve it.

00:49:30:07 – 00:49:52:05

Yeah. And I can tell you at least especially here in York County, which is where I dealt with the most of them. None of the judges are going to do that. Like you. You’d be lucky if they’ll reduce it. Agree to reduce it. Ten because the way the magisterial districts are set up and how Pennsylvania has that, like these judges are elected for their district.

00:49:52:11 – 00:50:12:15

And if it, you know, goes around that they’re reducing, you know, 50 miles over the speed limit to a nonmoving violation, that person goes out next week and kill somebody because they were speeding. Yeah. Not going to reflect well on them now. You know like they want to keep their their seats and their people safe. And again, even I had an officer I had a guy that was 30 over or 31 over.

00:50:12:15 – 00:50:32:27

He agreed to do five over. The judges like absolutely not. And we’re like, okay, well, what would you accept? He’s like, I’ll accept 20 over. There’s no you can’t really do much else. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Justin, that’s a very, very good point. Frequently dealing with these judges, with the officers, I mean, again, having good relationships, working these out.

00:50:32:27 – 00:50:52:21

You’re absolutely right. Sometimes you got cops it or just willing to cut your guy a break, but you got to get it past the judge. Yep. You know, and the judges, sometimes with the right arguments, it’s rare, but the right circumstances. And you got to be ready to bring the whole fort, you know, but at the right circumstances, you can get them there.

00:50:52:21 – 00:51:15:06

But they’re not just going to do it because they like you. And I’ve seen and we were talking a little bit about this before the, the episode today. But like I had a case one time with a guy who wanted a break, the officer seemed willing. But this guy in the last two years had been he had convicted of the exact same speeding violation.

00:51:15:07 – 00:51:37:00

I mean, he was speeding, probably like at least 20 miles over the speed limit on a highway three times or so before the the this current citation. And that’s what we were talking about earlier. Your driving record is forever. I mean, you know, the officer can can be willing to cut you a break, but a lot of times these judges, they’re smart enough.

00:51:37:00 – 00:51:56:00

They will ask how many prior offenses or what’s his driving record look like. And at that point, the officer can’t just be like, well, you know, judge, don’t worry about it. They’re gonna look, the dirty laundry is going to come out. And and the judges have your driving record in the file. I mean, they literally I’ve seen them reading.

00:51:56:00 – 00:52:15:06

Yeah. So it’s not like they’re not looking behind the curtain. So I mean, if they if you see somebody who has a habit of driving 80 miles an hour in a 45 mile an hour zone, and they’ve been convicted of those kinds of speeding violations a bunch of times in the past. I mean, you can, you can you can bet that you’re not really going to get a great break.

00:52:15:09 – 00:52:35:10

Got your bottom dollar. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And since we’re on speeding guys I do want to go over this a little bit. So I’m just going to give you the quick breakdown. And then Justin, I want you to also talk a little bit about excessive speeding and what that can do to your driver’s license. So basically in Pennsylvania, first and foremost there is no one point speeding ticket okay.

00:52:35:11 – 00:52:57:03

So in Pennsylvania we have a a point system that is built on six points basically okay. So if you get to six points, your driver’s license on a first time offense could be suspended. But they give you an opportunity to take an exam through PennDOT to get your license points reduced below that level for the first time. And failure to take it leads to a suspension.

00:52:57:04 – 00:53:26:00

Yes. Good point Tim. Failure to take it does lead to your license being suspended. If you get to six points a second time, you are going to be getting suspended and then even a third time and so on. It just gets worse and worse and worse. Not even to mention, guys, the insurance premium hike that you are going to get and depending on your age and whether you’re male or female, young or you could actually become uninsurable, and I’ve seen people get dropped off their insurance and they can’t even drive at all.

00:53:26:00 – 00:53:43:12

Then they might not be suspended, but they just got dropped off their insurance. So they can’t even drive because they don’t have vehicle insurance, which is required by law to drive. So be careful with that. That’s again, getting back to the indirect effects of some of these speeding tickets is the enormous insurance hikes. And I think I hear all the time guys.

00:53:43:12 – 00:54:10:25

And this actually makes me laugh sometimes I try not to do it directly to the client, but I sometimes have people contact me about speeding tickets and go, well, my speeding ticket and the court costs are it’s only $300. But your legal fees are more than that. Why would I hire you? And I’m like, do you understand all the indirect impacts that if I don’t fix this, you’re actually going to be paying through the nose, through your license points for your suspension, possibly for your insurance premium hikes and all of that.

00:54:10:25 – 00:54:29:05

And once you explain it to them like that, they’re like, oh, and I don’t even think about that. And yeah, so think about that. I mean, there’s a lot more effects than just the fine. And that’s again why people go in there and just plead to these and don’t really think about it. But to get back to what I was saying, as it relates to speeding tickets directly, there is no one point violation in Pennsylvania.

00:54:29:09 – 00:54:53:07

So if you are speeding 6 to 10 miles over the posted speed limit, it is a two point violation. If you are convicted of speeding 11 to 15 miles over the posted speed limit, it is a three point violation. If you are convicted of speeding 16 to 25 miles over the posted speed limit, it is a four point violation if you are suspended.

00:54:53:09 – 00:55:15:23

I’m sorry if you are convicted of speeding 26 to 30 miles over the posted speed limit, it is a five point violation and 31 or more miles over the posted speed limit is also a five point violation. Plus, Justin, I’m going to kick it to you for this. Tell me about where you get into excessive speeding and what that happens then.

00:55:16:00 – 00:55:40:18

Yeah, so excessive speeding in Pennsylvania is 31mph or more over the posted speed limit. And essentially you have to attend a departmental hearing which is in front of, well, PennDOT, basically, it’s a board, and then a do a driver improvement school. Basically, like everything else to do with PennDOT, you receive written notice of that.

00:55:40:21 – 00:56:05:23

And then essentially there’s a hearing examiner, that reviews your driving record. They do departmental review of the hearing file, and then they can recommend that you take a special on road driver’s examination, which I’ve actually never had anyone do. So I don’t really know if that is may suspend your license following that. They can so they can and that’s what usually happens.

00:56:05:23 – 00:56:35:29

Tim. Driving privilege will be suspended for a period of not exceeding 15 days. And that’s just a hit on what you said with the the accumulation of six points. For your first accumulation, it’s essentially you have a departmental hearing and the driver improvement school, after if you get a second accumulation of six points, again, same kind of consequences on road driver’s exam and suspension not exceeding 15 days.

00:56:36:01 – 00:57:02:22

Any third or subsequent accumulation of six points is a period not exceeding 30 days. But with the, excessive speeding, if the 15 day suspension is recommended, once that is complete, you have then five points on your license, and then even if you do, well, most of the time you have to do the, what’s it called?

00:57:02:22 – 00:57:25:27

Driver improvement school. You don’t get any points removed so that five points is sticking no matter what. Yeah. And, I think the biggest thing with that is, every 12 months from the date of conviction or restoration, you lose three points. So basically, if that happens, you lose your license for 15 days at least. Or excuse me, up to 15 days.

00:57:26:01 – 00:57:43:05

And then you have that five points. So you then have to go two years, two full years without any types of violations or convictions in order to get back to zero points. Yeah. And I can tell you and I know you just said this, you know, from experience, if you have five points on your driver’s license, your insurance premium.

00:57:43:07 – 00:58:03:22

Disgusting. Well, can we just say to just as another like side point, I mean, if you accumulate six points on your license three times, you’re a bad driver. You you shouldn’t be. There is an argument to be made that you should never be driving. I mean, and again, I mean, that’s judges see this records. I mean, so you go in there asking for certain breaks when you have records that.

00:58:03:24 – 00:58:23:17

But that’s an astronomically bad driver. I and I’ve never seen anything I’ve never seen at any point a three time six pointer. But another to your point, Justin, I kind of wanted to touch on this. I mean, you’re absolutely right about that. If you’re 31 or more over in Pennsylvania, that is considered excessive speeding. Okay. That is a whole different level.

00:58:23:17 – 00:58:40:18

This is not just a speeding ticket. This is excessive speeding defined in the law. And you’re going to end up at a departmental hearing. And ten times out of ten, nine times out of ten, you’re going to end up suspended for that, because of the excessive speeding alone. Not to mention what you just said. Five more points on your license.

00:58:40:18 – 00:59:06:19

So say you had two points from a small speeding ticket a year prior. Well, you just got five more points. Well guess what? Now you’re over six. So now you’re getting suspended again. So you can actually get double suspended if you find yourself in that situation. Another thing I wanted to tell you guys is when you’re out there and you get these, these, these tickets and you plead guilty to them and they carry points and you don’t you think you don’t care because you’re like, you know what?

00:59:06:19 – 00:59:33:06

It’s only two points. It’s only three points. My insurance premium will go up a little bit, but it’s still less than paying a lawyer, which, by the way, that’s wrong. But you think that. So you go ahead and plead guilty to it. What you’re not doing is ensuring your future. If you go out and get another ticket, you’re going to get your license suspended because you’re going to go over the 6.3, because there’s a lot of tickets out there that are three point tickets by statute, stop signs running a red light, those types of things for point violations.

00:59:33:10 – 01:00:06:07

And I’ll tell you all over to the excessive speeding. We don’t have this as a matter of like explicit law in the Commonwealth, but there are some states that do when you’re talking about excessive speeding, you’re almost always there’s going to be more with it. Yeah. Because when we use the words of excessive speeding, we are talking about something that begins to look a lot like criminal recklessness, which means depending on how you’re driving, if there’s more going on than just the speeding, you could be facing criminal charges for reckless endangerment.

01:00:06:07 – 01:00:29:21

There are there is case law out there that talks about the the mens rea for recklessness in a reckless endangerment statute or endangering welfare of children. If you’re driving 50 miles over the speed limit with kids in your car, you could be opening yourself up to criminal liability because of how you were driving. And so you’re if you’re doing that, you’re probably not just going to get a speeding ticket.

01:00:29:21 – 01:00:52:10

You’re probably also going to be getting criminal charges or much more serious, a motor vehicle code citations as well. Other jurisdictions call this a criminally reckless amount of speed. And so they have some of them in their their code of law. If you’re going over 25 miles an hour, that’s a criminal offense just per se in some of these other jurisdictions.

01:00:52:10 – 01:01:10:07

And you can be arrested on the spot for that. Yeah, Tim. And you’re right, I actually have seen a lot of times when I see as Justin and you were saying, these really high speeds, right, 100 miles an hour, 110, especially if you’re in a residential area, when you’re on that fast, you are not just getting started with a speeding ticket.

01:01:10:07 – 01:01:31:13

You’re getting reckless driving, which is suspended in its own right. You’re getting careless driving, you’re possibly getting endangerment of children, etc. and they just stack them and stack them, and you end up in a situation where you’re getting like triple suspended and your points are like 12 and like because the reckless, the recklessness overlaps with the mens rea for criminal offenses.

01:01:31:13 – 01:02:00:04

So at that you have to open yourself up and you have to go in there as an attorney and clean those up a little bit. And you can I mean, those are you can clean them up and mitigate to an extent. But like you said, Justin, to an extent is the key word there. Yeah. Like, you know, because you got to get past the judge and, you know, if it’s a school bus situation or you’re there with kids running around neighborhood and the parents want to come in and they all want to yell and scream as victims, you got to bet your bottom dollar that judge is not going to go there.

01:02:00:05 – 01:02:37:17

Yeah, we’re just going to do away with this. Well, we’ve had, you know, over the last few years some pretty serious and deadly accidents with people going around school busses, going through crosswalks like the county and the judges, whether that’s the district judges or the Common Pleas judges, like they’re very aware of, you know, all of these things happening over the in recent time, we’ll say and again, like I mentioned earlier, like, no judge wants to be the person that, you know, cuts someone like the ultimate break that either has a history of these types of offenses or like it was super egregious.

01:02:37:17 – 01:02:59:06

And then again, cut them that break in a couple days later, a couple weeks later, even a year later, you know, they go out and and and harm someone or kill someone. Nobody wants that on their conscience. Right. So that’s what I was saying earlier with like, the one where I think he was like 33 or 34 over, and essentially the guy had one prior offense and it wasn’t speeding.

01:02:59:09 – 01:03:17:09

I think what ended up happening is it was a speeding ticket that got reduced. I can’t confirm or deny that, but I think that’s what the judge assumed. And I actually my guy was on zoom for it, so he wasn’t even there for me to talk to him in person. And the judge asked him, I think, was it a speeding or something like that?

01:03:17:09 – 01:03:36:29

That got reduced, and I’m pretty sure he said yes. And that’s when again, the judge was like, well, you know, I’m I’m not going to go that low. Like I’ll agree to 20 over. And basically I said to, you know, my client, I was like, I can’t really do anything else here. You know, I’m, I’m hamstrung at this point because officers in agreement were in agreement.

01:03:36:29 – 01:03:52:07

But if the judge isn’t, your options are take this or we have a hearing and he finds a guilty of the 33 over. Yeah. You know so that’s it’s unfortunate when that happens. But there’s always a risk. So it is what it is. Was that the one you covered for me. That is not the one that I covered for you.

01:03:52:09 – 01:04:07:01

Appreciate the one you covered. Yeah. You did a good dance on that. I remember when after that, you. I think you called me or texted me or. And you told me how it went, and I was just like, I was really thankful that you got that deal that you did because you were. That was a tough one. Yeah.

01:04:07:04 – 01:04:19:09

You know, and I actually felt bad sending you out to that one because it was a case that I had, but I had something else going on. Walked him into an ambush. I know, but you did an excellent job. And I remember you telling me, like, we were there for, like, an hour for this speeding ticket. And it was like.

01:04:19:10 – 01:04:38:07

And and that’s again where what I mentioned earlier, like, it’s important to have an attorney, in those situations because again, if that person went in, you know, without an attorney, it was just them in the officer and the judge, they would have got steamrolled, they would have got steamrolled and wouldn’t have known what to do. And like I said, for me being in there, luckily there were no other hearings going on.

01:04:38:09 – 01:04:54:07

It was I wouldn’t say it was late in the afternoon, but there just wasn’t anything like directly after the one that we had say it was like 2:00. The next one was like 330. So when we present everything to the judge and he’s like, well, I’m not doing that. And then he kind of lectured the girl a little bit just because he’s like, I’m familiar with you.

01:04:54:09 – 01:05:09:01

You’ve been here before, you know, you said you were going to stop driving. And I was like, at this point I just got a full Senate. And I was like, judge, well, can you give me a couple of minutes to talk to the officer, see if we can come up with something? So I stepped out, talked the officer a little bit.

01:05:09:01 – 01:05:33:06

We came back in, you know, presented something else. Judges like, I’m just not convinced. So really, what it was, was just me continuously back to the drawing board, continuously figuring out what to say to the judge and how to say it to the judge to get him to cross the line. Yeah. And I had proposed a number of things that honestly, I was like, I don’t think any of this is going to work, but I’m just gonna start throwing stuff out there.

01:05:33:09 – 01:05:55:13

We’ll see what sticks. And ultimately got the judge to the point where, again, I think I convinced him of she had a plan. There was a number of other things that she agreed to do or not do. Again, the officer was on board with it. And basically I was like, judge, you know, we’ll agree to basically whatever we can to avoid a further suspension.

01:05:55:16 – 01:06:18:09

Like we’ll pay a higher fine, we’ll do this, we’ll do that. I was like, this isn’t really how you do it, but I’m like, sider with something else, like, you know, just trying to figure out what we could do. And then, like I said, eventually he he came around and basically lectured the the girl for about 25 minutes and was like, I have really no reason to do this other than your attorneys doing a good job.

01:06:18:09 – 01:06:34:19

The officer’s in agreement. And I think she I think she cried a little bit. They may have helped a little. I think he felt kind of bad. But again, it it took a lot of work to get there. Yeah. But we got there and that judge that you’re talking about, Justin has since recently retired. Did you know that?

01:06:34:19 – 01:06:56:00

No. Yeah. We’re not going to mention him by name, but, recently retired. He was a wonderful man. He’s a great judge. He’s not a mean judge. So I just want to kind of tell our viewers here that this is not a judge that is, like, habitually, just, like, jamming people up. Like, he’s actually pretty reasonable and does a lot of really he’s done a lot of really good things for his area.

01:06:56:05 – 01:07:16:04

And I think he’s very conscientious of his residence and protecting them. I know who you’re talking about. Yeah, I was very sad to hear that he retired. Yeah, it was pretty sudden. Yeah. It was, but in any event, to another point that you made that I thought was pretty valid. There is these judges see people regularly. It’s the same people because you got to think about this, guys.

01:07:16:04 – 01:07:29:22

I mean, you drive around the same areas all the time. It’s where you live. It’s where you work. That’s why people are getting pulled over constantly because they have a even if they don’t have a unique car. Say you have like a sedan, but it’s registered to you. You have a suspended license. They know they know you. Yeah.

01:07:29:24 – 01:07:49:18

The cop, the the actual cop has seen you before. Like they know you. They’re familiar with you. Absolutely. So again, I’ve heard that from that judge and some other judges like, come on, man, you’ve been here like three times, like something’s got to give. And and that is just the point that they are. Yeah. Kind of the protector of their jurisdiction, you know, in a way.

01:07:49:21 – 01:08:01:25

So and it goes to Tim’s point about deterrence, you know what I mean? Like if people are constantly showing up doing the same thing and they’re like, I’m not going to do it, I’m not going to do it makes our jobs a lot harder, and it gets a lot harder to go in there and say, judge, they’re really sorry.

01:08:01:28 – 01:08:17:28

They’re not going to do it again because it’s like, well, let’s look at the and that’s a good point because deterrence is one of several punishment theories. And I mean, you’re undermining all of them when you repeat the same conduct over and over again, because it’s really hard for us to sell to convince anybody that you’ve been rehabilitated.

01:08:18:00 – 01:08:39:07

If you keep doing the same stuff over and over again, it’s really hard for the judge to arrive at any conclusion other than I have to incapacitate this person because they will not stop. And how do you incapacitate somebody legally? You put them on, take them out of society. Right. You know, can I say I want to? I wanted to say this, and I, I, I made a note because I forgot to say it.

01:08:39:07 – 01:09:07:01

I don’t want to, like, derail the conversation or drag us backwards. But I do want to say a public service announcement, because I was talking to an officer about this just yesterday, I think, and he was really hammering this with me. And he is he’s exactly right. The public service announcement is that if you switch your insurance provider, the way to do that in Pennsylvania, to avoid your license being or your registration being suspended is activate the new coverage first.

01:09:07:06 – 01:09:39:20

Yes. Then deactivate your old coverage if you deactivate your old coverage and then you activate new coverage, there will be a gap in your insurance which PennDOT can see. And even if that gap is like a day or a few hours or whatever, PennDOT will suspend your your registration. And that will result almost always in your registration being suspended longer than the period of insurance gap, because they’re not very quick about reinstating your registration.

01:09:39:25 – 01:09:59:05

And the officer really wanted to make that point known to people. So hat tip to him won’t say his name, but activate your new coverage first, then deactivate your old coverage. Because if you if you do have a gap in coverage, even if you’re switching to something new, PennDOT, in their infinite wisdom, will most likely still suspend your registration.

01:09:59:12 – 01:10:19:15

I, it’s interesting you bring that up, Tim, because I am actually right now in the process of changing insurance vehicle insurance providers. I’m going to give a quick shout out to my insurance agent. He’s awesome. His name is Brad Pifer. Pifer insurance. He is really, really good. Super bright. Gets me a ton of breaks on different things.

01:10:19:19 – 01:10:43:17

He does my homeowners, he does my business. He does my my vehicle. He works with his father, and they’ve been in business for many, many years. But in any event, Brad, I love you. But I’m in the actively doing that right now, so I am literally going to call him tonight, and he’ll. I know he’s already on top of this because he’s never failed me before, but I’m just going to remind him, hey, Tim told me today, I just want to make sure I don’t end up in your insurance.

01:10:43:19 – 01:11:02:23

And and I think in every case, maybe most cases is prorated. So, like, you don’t have to worry about paying for two coverages at the same time, because when you cancel the old coverage, it’s prorated. They’ll refund you whatever you’ve paid. In most of those situations. A lot of people I think are like, well, I don’t want to pay for two insurances and have overlap.

01:11:02:23 – 01:11:22:10

So they think they’re being smart. But activate the new coverage, then deactivate the old coverage. Okay, that’s the lesson. Cool. All right. Well hey, where I’m looking at our clock here. We’re over an hour already. That went by fast. We still didn’t even get to, like, even the second page or even down the first page of our outline.

01:11:22:10 – 01:11:42:25

So what we’re going to do, guys, we’re going to buy for Kate this, we’ll pick this up next week. We’re going to get back into some stuff I want to talk about school bus citations. I want to talk about CDL. That’s a big one. We get calls all the time about CDL drivers. And there are is a whole different set of rules that apply to CDL drivers that need to be protected, and you need to be conscious of if you’re going to defend them.

01:11:42:28 – 01:12:00:24

There’s a lot of things we’re going to talk about habitual offenders. I wanted to even talk a little bit more about driving under suspension, DUI related while your DUI, because that’s also a whole other level of driving under suspension. So guys, next week catch back up with us. We’re going to start unpacking the rest of that. I hope you got a lot out of this.

01:12:00:27 – 01:12:16:28

Save it to your favorites. Like this is stuff you’re gonna run into. I promise you, even if you’re an angel in society and you’ve never been in trouble, there will come a time where you’re going to have some interaction involving some sort of traffic violation. Know what you’re doing. If you don’t know what you’re doing, call us.

01:12:17:00 – 01:12:30:25

Call a lawyer. Figure it out before you plead guilty to a crime, and get yourself in a headache that you weren’t expecting. It was great being with you guys this week, guys. Thanks for the additions this week. You guys did awesome. We’ll pick it up next week. We’ll see you again, guys. Take care.